Spore Creatures and Drawn Images: Debate Thread

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Re: Spore Creatures and Drawn Images: Debate Thread

Post by The Cunning Linguist on Sat Jun 01, 2013 9:01 pm

Zaroas wrote:
KzhuRaptor wrote:
Zaroas wrote:Very nice job, Vipera.

Maybe not quite... But I see you've also misunderstood my standing. I say that we should accept BOTH drawing AND making your creations in Spore. And there'd be not much of a difference, since we've already got unillustrated empires and whatnot. Spore just makes everything easier. I mean, I can do both.

I don't see the particular creation in question, I was using that as a specific example because it has a lot of detail. I agree that drawing is fine, and for the time being Spore is as well, but I feel like you're proposing that we should use it for a little too much. We shouldn't use Spore to advertise as much as you're proposing. If we do that it's a crutch. If we use it a little bit while there's still a fanbase then stop, then sure. But I don't want to rely on it. If it won't make a difference then we might as well not bother and advertise as an RP club (Which we are) on an RP forum or something. This will help more than ANY Spore creation or drawing if it won't make a difference. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Not as much as I'm proposing, but as much as anyone else could. I'm guessing not EVERYONE here is so good at drawing. What I mean by "making a difference", is that drawing it is already good enough, as we have unillustrated empires. It's... hard to explain, but I forgot what I meant by that anyways. I think my incorrectness of terms is making some conflict, but I can see you don't like using Spore.

It's not that I absolutely hate it, it's that I don't have access to it on this computer. I used up my 5 installs and the computer I used to play on is taken apart and sitting in a box in my basement. I don't know how to put a computer together.

I think we should use drawings in our advertisements, but we can still consider this an RP. Adventures we shouldn't need to use, especially with how much detail can be missed making one. Many members have missed out on some great stories because, rather than put into words, they were in an adventure,

Commercialist greed by those EA slave-drivers...

As for "advertising", I had the ideas to use Sporewiki and Youtube, the former obviously using Spore, while the latter is due to the fact animating would take a long time, while we could make animations using Spore, while adding any art we made as well. I say both.
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Re: Spore Creatures and Drawn Images: Debate Thread

Post by ViperaUnion on Sat Jun 01, 2013 9:27 pm

KzhuRaptor wrote:
Hm... say, what if I make a challenge to see if I can make this on Spore? Let's see how this turns out...

Good luck, I added details to make it virtually impossible, and if you manage to make that in creature mode, I'll keep drawing until I find one you can't replicate. I see it as a challenge, and I am extremely competitive when it comes to drawing things.

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Re: Spore Creatures and Drawn Images: Debate Thread

Post by The Cunning Linguist on Sat Jun 01, 2013 9:59 pm

Well, I made it. And it turned out like this:

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I tried exploiting what I could to make it simple, such as using a weapon for the head spikes.

Now, it might not be as detailed as your original pic, but that's... kinda the point. That's why we draw the things; we make them a little more complex for static images.

But... you see... I saw RG as an opportunity to make use of Spore. It's kinda considered a "dead game" by now, especially after the Sporum was basically down. People get bored of the simplicty... people might want to create stories of their empires that Spore can't make. People might want to make adventures and creations that are all interconnected in a living plot. They might not be talented/too lazy (I'm the latter) at drawing. But then there's those that aren't content with the simplicity of the game (like you), or don't even have it at all, yet they have a drawing tool, an image processor, and talent at drawing. I mean, we should make the motto Ruthless Galaxy is an awesome galactic adventure for anyone. up there to be of any value.
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Re: Spore Creatures and Drawn Images: Debate Thread

Post by ViperaUnion on Sat Jun 01, 2013 10:26 pm

It doesn't look quite right, Raptor. It looks like a bat wing was used for the tail, and you didn't try to add the ornamentation on the legs. The tail was key in making the creation look balanced, as without the weighted appearance of it, it looked as though the front part of the body would tip over. The legs had frills on them, and then hair came out from beneath the frills. I don't even know if I can consider that actual proof you can make everything in Spore, because the copy is is almost too simplified to be accurate. I can't even see the four main eyes where I think they're supposed to be, because there's a large frill in the way when it shouldn't even be there.

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Re: Spore Creatures and Drawn Images: Debate Thread

Post by The Cunning Linguist on Sat Jun 01, 2013 10:36 pm

ViperaUnion wrote:It doesn't look quite right, Raptor. It looks like a bat wing was used for the tail, and you didn't try to add the ornamentation on the legs. The tail was key in making the creation look balanced, as without the weighted appearance of it, it looked as though the front part of the body would tip over. The legs had frills on them, and then hair came out from beneath the frills. I don't even know if I can consider that actual proof you can make everything in Spore, because the copy is is almost too simplified to be accurate. I can't even see the four main eyes where I think they're supposed to be, because there's a large frill in the way when it shouldn't even be there.

Wait, how was I meant to know those things without context? (I did however decide not to ask, so that could be blamed on me)

But see, in the end it still resembles the thing. If you want to be a perfectionist, or make some poses, you would draw them. But then again, this kind of discussion is kinda useless in the first place, the fact that our RPs are mostly unillustrated :/... And if you want to illustrate something in, say, our wiki, you could either choose to draw it yourself or make Spore creations of them.
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Re: Spore Creatures and Drawn Images: Debate Thread

Post by ViperaUnion on Sat Jun 01, 2013 11:27 pm

Emphasis on resembles, Raptor, it's not a copy, so you can't say you can make it on Spore. The whole reason of why I drew that creation, was to prove that you can't copy my drawings in Spore accurately enough for me to be happy with them. I openly admit my critique is harsh, and also somewhat hostile, but my whole point is that I don't want anyone thinking what I draw is easy to copy, especially on a game that I see as limiting creative freedom. If I don't like the idea of copying my designs being easy, I am going to be a perfectionist, and difficult to impress, and I won't look for what was accurate, I will look for what's missing or not right. I never take challenges to my creativity lightly, Raptor, because I take pride in it. I don't like the idea of anyone saying my creations can be copied in Spore, because I largely believe my designs surpass the game.

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Re: Spore Creatures and Drawn Images: Debate Thread

Post by The Cunning Linguist on Sat Jun 01, 2013 11:31 pm

ViperaUnion wrote:Emphasis on resembles, Raptor, it's not a copy, so you can't say you can make it on Spore. The whole reason of why I drew that creation, was to prove that you can't copy my drawings in Spore accurately enough for me to be happy with them. I openly admit my critique is harsh, and also somewhat hostile, but my whole point is that I don't want anyone thinking what I draw is easy to copy, especially on a game that I see as limiting creative freedom. If I don't like the idea of copying my designs being easy, I am going to be a perfectionist, and difficult to impress, and I won't look for what was accurate, I will look for what's missing or not right. I never take challenges to my creativity lightly, Raptor, because I take pride in it. I don't like the idea of anyone saying my creations can be copied in Spore, because I largely believe my designs surpass the game.

No, but that is also why I support having both drawings and Spore creations, and not just having art. It would be a win-win situation (though admittedly I think lose-lose is better than win-win)
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Re: Spore Creatures and Drawn Images: Debate Thread

Post by ViperaUnion on Sat Jun 01, 2013 11:43 pm

Yes, but as mentioned earlier, some people may not want to join because we have a link to a video game, and like Zarous said, I don't want us to use it as a crutch. If someone is terrible at drawing, they aren't going to get better by not practicing and relying on Spore. Nobody gets good at drawing overnight, you have to practice, and gradually you improve. When I myself began RPing, I improved on character realism, and it's a similar concept with drawing. If people draw, they get better over time. I often re-draw things I am not satisfied with, and it would encourage creative freedom if people were to start relying on things they imagined completely apart from a game with pre-made parts.

On an unrelated note, it is also good for people who are supervised by their parents to separate from Spore. My own parents didn't like me playing Spore all the time, although they were happy when I started RPing, because I was actually improving on things, doing research and getting better at writing stories. I would see the same concept in drawing instead of creations, because then you're actually improving a skill.

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Re: Spore Creatures and Drawn Images: Debate Thread

Post by The Cunning Linguist on Sat Jun 01, 2013 11:51 pm

ViperaUnion wrote:Yes, but as mentioned earlier, some people may not want to join because we have a link to a video game, and like Zarous said, I don't want us to use it as a crutch. If someone is terrible at drawing, they aren't going to get better by not practicing and relying on Spore. Nobody gets good at drawing overnight, you have to practice, and gradually you improve. When I myself began RPing, I improved on character realism, and it's a similar concept with drawing. If people draw, they get better over time. I often re-draw things I am not satisfied with, and it would encourage creative freedom if people were to start relying on things they imagined completely apart from a game with pre-made parts.

Some people might not want to join because they have Spore but they're not so good at drawing, or more like me, takes time to draw and might be too lazy to draw sometimes.

That's why I support both. Oh well...

Oh, and here's another challenge! Try drawing a 4-dimensional creature, like a tesseract [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]. Twisted Evil MUAHAHAHAHA!!! Here's a video that may help, but probably not.
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Re: Spore Creatures and Drawn Images: Debate Thread

Post by ViperaUnion on Sat Jun 01, 2013 11:56 pm

Oh, wow, images based on mathematical-looking equations...thanks a lot...I hate math, but regardless, I could try it, because it actually looks like a cool concept.

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Re: Spore Creatures and Drawn Images: Debate Thread

Post by The Cunning Linguist on Sat Jun 01, 2013 11:58 pm

ViperaUnion wrote:Oh, wow, images based on mathematical-looking equations...thanks a lot...I hate math, but regardless, I could try it, because it actually looks like a cool concept.

You're on the way to making: Extra-dimensional god-creatures! hunfgod

Hint: It's basically slapping together two 4-dimensional objects and adding connecting the proverbial dots of non-human comprehension. At least from a meek 3-dimensional creature's perspective.
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Re: Spore Creatures and Drawn Images: Debate Thread

Post by ViperaUnion on Sun Jun 02, 2013 12:00 am

Yes, well, I must now find a ruler, there's a bit of geometry in this, and even if I try, it may not count as fourth-dimensional, as the concept is abstract. However, I suppose whatever I make will probably be unique in appearance, and probably transparent, too,

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Re: Spore Creatures and Drawn Images: Debate Thread

Post by The Cunning Linguist on Sun Jun 02, 2013 12:05 am

Well, you said something about things not being able to be made in Spore... I'm sure this can't be made in Spore, or anything at all from our 3d world... What you'd be seeing is only the left-right and up-down, but not the impossibly incomprehensible 4th direction which might be <^>dnfjsrdbikhswneno-oneknows (if you discount spacetime).
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Re: Spore Creatures and Drawn Images: Debate Thread

Post by Whos on Sun Jun 02, 2013 12:14 pm

Everyone has made some good points, and I see where they stand on this matter, so I'll state mine in more detail. Zar and Vipera say Spore acts like a hindrance to this club, but both of them have either issues with the computer they have Spore on, or something has happened that prevents them from installing it, which, and I'm not saying it is, could be a base for a bias. I'm all for both drawing and using Spore. Drawing allows people to be more detailed in the description of their race, and while Spore may limit that detail, it is still handy for those who wish to use adventures. While Vipera has said that she doesn't want her work to be...commercialized, her creations never have been, and if she doesn't want to have them used in adventures, then they don't have to be, people ask if they can use someone else's race. This club started with Spore as its basis, and while moving away from it and exploring other ways of expressing an empire is fine, I do not think it should become taboo. Not at all. If the Sporum ever starts up again we're back in business over there, and there is where I think we'll get the most members.

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Re: Spore Creatures and Drawn Images: Debate Thread

Post by ViperaUnion on Sun Jun 02, 2013 12:38 pm

Well, my opinion is, indeed, biased against Spore, but that doesn't mean yours isn't biased, either. Debating is voicing opinions, and an opinion is always going to be biased, one way or another. When I first got spore, it was old enough where it took some time to get my computer to work with it properly, and that computer is several years old, while I currently am using one several years ahead. The game may not resurface if computers become so advanced to the point that Spore is no longer compatible, and there is still the fact that people are reluctant to pay for the game in the first place. Although you say it makes things easier, people can feel pressured because currently we still focus so much on Spore that drawings are more taboo than the game. If you rely so much on a game to get members, people aren't ever going to know they can just draw things. They'll think they have to have the game, and people who draw are the weird minority. You hear talk about all this stuff that to someone who never got the game, it might feel confusing, and they can't play adventures because the don't have it. In addition, it is clear from this debate there is no possible way for one party to convince the other. I cannot convince a supporter of Spore to abandon the game and move away from it, and in turn a supporter of Spore isn't ever going to convince me to completely agree with use of creations in the club, simply because that is my opinion, and I am determined not to change my opinion any time soon.

All I can say is, that this will likely continue to be an ongoing issue, as the club is divided into factions, some that support the game, and others that do not. It will probably persist in causing conflict until the issue is properly resolved, which as of yet it hasn't, because neither of us really have a solution that both people entirely like.

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Re: Spore Creatures and Drawn Images: Debate Thread

Post by The Cunning Linguist on Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:11 pm

ViperaUnion wrote:Well, my opinion is, indeed, biased against Spore, but that doesn't mean yours isn't biased, either. Debating is voicing opinions, and an opinion is always going to be biased, one way or another. When I first got spore, it was old enough where it took some time to get my computer to work with it properly, and that computer is several years old, while I currently am using one several years ahead. The game may not resurface if computers become so advanced to the point that Spore is no longer compatible, and there is still the fact that people are reluctant to pay for the game in the first place. Although you say it makes things easier, people can feel pressured because currently we still focus so much on Spore that drawings are more taboo than the game. If you rely so much on a game to get members, people aren't ever going to know they can just draw things. They'll think they have to have the game, and people who draw are the weird minority. You hear talk about all this stuff that to someone who never got the game, it might feel confusing, and they can't play adventures because the don't have it. In addition, it is clear from this debate there is no possible way for one party to convince the other. I cannot convince a supporter of Spore to abandon the game and move away from it, and in turn a supporter of Spore isn't ever going to convince me to completely agree with use of creations in the club, simply because that is my opinion, and I am determined not to change my opinion any time soon.

All I can say is, that this will likely continue to be an ongoing issue, as the club is divided into factions, some that support the game, and others that do not. It will probably persist in causing conflict until the issue is properly resolved, which as of yet it hasn't, because neither of us really have a solution that both people entirely like.

...We've only been arguing amongst ourselves, Vipera.
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Re: Spore Creatures and Drawn Images: Debate Thread

Post by Zaroas on Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:24 pm

Whoster wrote:Everyone has made some good points, and I see where they stand on this matter, so I'll state mine in more detail. Zar and Vipera say Spore acts like a hindrance to this club, but both of them have either issues with the computer they have Spore on, or something has happened that prevents them from installing it, which, and I'm not saying it is, could be a base for a bias. I'm all for both drawing and using Spore. Drawing allows people to be more detailed in the description of their race, and while Spore may limit that detail, it is still handy for those who wish to use adventures. While Vipera has said that she doesn't want her work to be...commercialized, her creations never have been, and if she doesn't want to have them used in adventures, then they don't have to be, people ask if they can use someone else's race. This club started with Spore as its basis, and while moving away from it and exploring other ways of expressing an empire is fine, I do not think it should become taboo. Not at all. If the Sporum ever starts up again we're back in business over there, and there is where I think we'll get the most members.
I don't think that the Sporum should be a primary source of members. We're primarily an RP club, not an adventure club like EAW. Now, because of the Spore aspect, we've gotten many members wanting to show off their Spore empires. This sometimes results in something that is largely based off the game and then original. An example of this is use of the stages in racial history. I honestly don't like seeing, "During creature stage, this happened." or "The cells in the waters of whatever world it is fought for dominance, and this came on top." That is not very realistic. That's called gameplay, and it doesn't mix well imo. I agree that, for now, we can use both, but we shouldn't be using Spore as our primary source of membership or to give us our racial origin. That's a crutch right there. With that in mind, we should look to advertise more to other RPers rather than Spore players so there is more freedom out there. We really don't need either drawings or creations, as much of this club is in words. But for the sake of creativity, we need to distance ourselves from Spore.

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Re: Spore Creatures and Drawn Images: Debate Thread

Post by The Cunning Linguist on Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:41 pm

In fact, neither should even matter, because we're an RP club. It only matters if they're good at writing, and if they can create a society of their own.







...Now if you'll excuse me, I'll be watching Robbaz videos of him playing Spore with his GLORIOUS walrus.
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Re: Spore Creatures and Drawn Images: Debate Thread

Post by ViperaUnion on Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:51 pm

RPing for some people is seen as a way of improving our writing or creativity skills, Spore isn't realistic, not even on a scientific level. The way the game works is overly simplified. If it was more specific in evolution, it wouldn't be an individual cell changing over time, following a single path. One species would split into two, and then you'd get families, sort of like how some reptiles are considered to have become birds, and then others became mammals. People think there was a common ancestor of humans and chimpanzees, and all that set us apart was that one developed thumbs on the foot and the other developed big toes. One could be arboreal and live in a tree, while the other could walk upright. Spore is a crutch, especially if it's heavily referenced in race biographies like Zaroas pointed out, because in real life there's not stages, there's eras where different things are dominant, and depending on more than just other species, environmental factors and habitat influence how something changes.

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Re: Spore Creatures and Drawn Images: Debate Thread

Post by The Cunning Linguist on Sun Jun 02, 2013 2:06 pm

ViperaUnion wrote:RPing for some people is seen as a way of improving our writing or creativity skills, Spore isn't realistic, not even on a scientific level. The way the game works is overly simplified. If it was more specific in evolution, it wouldn't be an individual cell changing over time, following a single path. One species would split into two, and then you'd get families, sort of like how some reptiles are considered to have become birds, and then others became mammals. People think there was a common ancestor of humans and chimpanzees, and all that set us apart was that one developed thumbs on the foot and the other developed big toes. One could be arboreal and live in a tree, while the other could walk upright. Spore is a crutch, especially if it's heavily referenced in race biographies like Zaroas pointed out, because in real life there's not stages, there's eras where different things are dominant, and depending on more than just other species, environmental factors and habitat influence how something changes.

Uh... so far we've only been using Spore as a medium for making creations...


P.S. Where's that 4d creature? Did your brain explode before you were finished or something? Stupid 3-dimensional creatures...
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Re: Spore Creatures and Drawn Images: Debate Thread

Post by Whos on Sun Jun 02, 2013 2:20 pm

Hm. I agree with you on that Zar, you got me there, about the Spore stages and stuff. Hmph.

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Re: Spore Creatures and Drawn Images: Debate Thread

Post by The Cunning Linguist on Sun Jun 02, 2013 2:56 pm

Whoster wrote:Hm. I agree with you on that Zar, you got me there, about the Spore stages and stuff. Hmph.

Of course. That's why we write our own histories. I based off mine from random snips of Human history. But don't get me wrong though, the entire reason I joined RG was to make use for Spore (considered a "dead game"), and so that I could make creations that are part of a plot. We should have about the same level of Spore integration, just add other things.
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Re: Spore Creatures and Drawn Images: Debate Thread

Post by ViperaUnion on Sun Jun 02, 2013 3:00 pm

Don't rush me, Raptor, It's almost done, I just have to scan it and edit the photo on my computer. I don't give up that easily, it's just that I had to do a lot of stuff involving a ruler...actually, it's very geometric, but it's still identifiable as a creature.

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Re: Spore Creatures and Drawn Images: Debate Thread

Post by The Cunning Linguist on Sun Jun 02, 2013 3:01 pm

ViperaUnion wrote:Don't rush me, Raptor, It's almost done, I just have to scan it and edit the photo on my computer. I don't give up that easily, it's just that I had to do a lot of stuff involving a ruler...actually, it's very geometric, but it's still identifiable as a creature.

Really? Wow...
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Re: Spore Creatures and Drawn Images: Debate Thread

Post by ViperaUnion on Sun Jun 02, 2013 3:08 pm

Yeah...in human concept, the fourth-dimensional shape casts a three-dimensional shadow, I had to connect a lot of points and erase lines if I did something wrong...near the end it got really confusing, because you thought spot A connected to spot B, when it was actually supposed to connect to spot C, but you didn't know because you mistook a line for another line...

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